Cherry poppin' post thought I'd start off with a nice or maybe not so nice debate?

Hi first post. Been a big fan forever of anything and everything Brian. past,present, and future projects!

I was just thinking about this the other day, and I know I'll probably catch a little heat from the people on here old enough to have witnessed the early days of the Cats, with their young waving of the rockabilly flag spirit!

What I'm getting at is in my opinion, I really think for good old pure rockin rockabilly, The Ignition lineup of the 68CBS is hands down the best sounding best musicianship Rockabilly trio that Brian has ever been apart of. I know Brian always states that the reason for the many Cats reunions and why even in 2008 we have this farewell tour happening is because "the cats are the best hands down rockabilly band in the world period". Maybe I'm wrong? I'll admitt first off I wasn't old enough to witness the early days of The Cats, in fact I've still yet to see the Cats live with the exception of the Brixton dvd. I have however seen the orchestra and various trio projects live way into the double digits.

Before I forget to mention for those on the cats side of this argument, I realize they have that history and they grew up as teenaers and thats a huge factor. In fact Scott Weilend of STP recenly phoned into howard sterns show and talked about stuff behind him recently leaving the group Vevet revolver. He said something basically to the effect of, "no matter what project I have been involved in, the chemistry just doesn't seem right, however evrytime I would get together with the deleo brothers from StP it was like magic, and maybe thats because we were all sort of like brothers in a sense that we grew up together as young kids". So I can see that side of Brian always defending Cats as the best. However, here is my side of why I think the 68CBS was the best trio Brian has had ever! I'll rank it down membr by member

BRIAN
For starters I believe obviously as a musician you never stop learning and improving so, Brian is and will always surprise us with new aspects to his sound and playing. However although Brian knew Jazz from way back, his starting of the BSO really threw that side of his playing into the public eye, and to some for the first time. Not only that but because he was now leaning more Jazz with the BSO rather than just the limits of trio Rockabilly, (yes I realize rockabilly is a hybrid of jazz,country,and r&b). He was able to show that side of his playing off way more so to speak. That being said alot of the public or even us fans seem to then start noticing what seems like a huge advancement in his overall playing and technique. Lets face it when you start comping Jazz chords and throwing in those amazing licks on top of what we already knew Brian was capable of as a player you get an unbeleivable sound! And well after the height of the Bso Brian's first return to trio Rockabilly was with the 68CBS. so to me it was as if all those newly introduced aspects to his playing were still there but now being showcased off in the trio format. We all know Brian is one of the worlds greatests at guitar and he was great in the days of Stray Cats, but you can't play for 10 years with horn players and not improve as a player, it jus aint gonna happen. so to me his playing durring the 68CBS is some of his greatest ever! Plus gear wise I'll alays be the biggest fan to his re301 bassman setups verses the change to smaller griitier spros nd what not starting with nitro and a bit on Boogie woogie, or even the to me staleness of no echo on 13. Not that he played badly on 13 it was just a bit of a shock to hear those hands, that style, without the signature slap back we all came to admire over the years. But again 68BS ra great sound!

Bernie VRS SLIM Jim

Don't get me wrong I think that Slim jim is a fine drummer, and I think his little hipkit one cymbal,bass and snare is cool, and added not only a visual effect but also added to the sound of that striped down early rock n roll rockabilly. And ya, I guess I have heard brian say from interviews from the time of the 68cbs that Stray cats were more authentic "retro", and the 68 was a bit more reved up and modern, so I can see where the little kit works. However it is also very limiting. And in Slim Jims own words, i think from the bonus Studio footage on the Brixton DVD "I go in there and play the same old 3 or 4 licks that I know". Which is fine as it perfectly can fit and do justice to the sound. However obviously on a full regular trap kit with more than one cymbal an a very educated Rock/Jazz drummer like Bernie you get an amazing sound! That one's simple enough.

Winchester vrs Lee Rocker

I know Brian has been quoted numerous times saying that lee is the best slap bass player he has played with in his entire career. However maybe its just me but starting with the sound. To me, Mark Winchester has this more percussive type slap and style that is almost if you can get this wierd analogy, "wood knocking more". While Lee seems to have a softer slap and at times almost (at least on certain recordings which could be do to the nature of how the bass was recorded) almost at times sounds more fretless bass like, almost in a way like his strength of the slap technique isn't as pronouced? However, he does slap a mean friggin bass don't get me wrong. But, just my personal opinion compare a bunch of different live show solos of Mark on tunes like Stray cat strut or Mystery train verses lee and I tend to lean towards Mark as a better sound!

on a side note, my list of slappers from Most to least fav that Brian has played with over the years and I could be missing some?

1.Mark Winchester
2.Lee rocker
3.Spazz Hatton
4.Ronnie crutcher
5.Tony Garnier



So there you have it, my first post. A long winded debate as to why I like the 68CBS way better than Stray Cats.

ya know I can barely get people in my neck of the woods to listen to " Rocka What ?" and here you are strippen it down. Man ,you are brave.

Pleased to meet you, and welcome to the forums!

Thanks for that detailed analysis, it's great to meet other people who are passionate about this stuff. You talk a great deal about musicianship in your post, which is perfectly valid. However, if that was the only thing that made people love music, there are plenty of bands that never would've gotten out of their garages. One also has to take into account the showmanship, the personalities, the audience, the era... and of course, there's the physical side of it too - careers have been made and destroyed on looks alone!

Is it possible to quantify and compare the newness, raw excitement and visceral sexuality of Stray Cats of the early 80's with the virtuosity and experience of 68 Comeback Special? Even comparing 80's Stray Cats to Stray Cats today - the band has changed, the times have changed, the audience has changed.... In my mind, they're entirely different experiences that share common elements.

Regardless of who, when or where, I feel exceedingly lucky any time I have an opportunity to hear anybody play good music that passionately.

You'll get little argument from me on your points about the talent and musicianship of the '68 CBS. Adding one Kevin McKendree on piano to round out the studio band for Rockabilly Riot, Volume One made for a very strong musical unit as well.

Rockabilly music, at its core, isn't about who is technically the best musician. Sometimes, the most technically adept musicians can't produce such a rockin', authentic sound. Shoot, back in the 80s, Brian took a fair amount of criticism for being too much of a guitar slinger - that he was a more accomplished guitarist than most of the original rockabillies - these critics suffered from the "1956 Underwear Syndrome."

Scotty Moore and Bill Black weren't even close to being the best at what they did in terms of technique, but the sounds that came out of Sun Studios in 1954-55 are among the best ever. A song like Joe Clay's Ducktail is one for the ages, and I'm sure the fellas on that record couldn't hold a candle to Brian, Mark, or Bernie technique-wise. Rockabilly is about a feeling, a chemistry, and it should never come down to who is better. It's visceral, and it's all good. I adore plenty of rockabliies who never had the talent of the '68 CBS. Whether Lee or Jim are as talented as Mark or Bernie has nothing to do with the chemistry of each trio when they come together. No matter how the resume's of Mark and Bernie read, some people will just prefer the band that started it all for them, Stray Cats.

Anytime you hear or read Brian saying so-and-so's "the best ever," it may be part showmanship, or it may be a sincere statement of opinion. Regardless, I don't think it should change your personal opinion. You like what you like, or rather, you have a slight preference and are welcome to your opinion.

Before anyone with Farewell Tour stars in your eyes cries "blasphemy!," nobody's saying that Stray Cats are a second-rate rockabilly band. This thread is about who do you prefer and why?

If I had to pick a band to see next - '68 CBS or Stray Cats - I'd pick Stray Cats every time. And it goes back to the chemistry and history of Brian, Lee, and Jim, and what that band means to me personally. Of course, if you throw a piano player in there...

It's an interesting debate, and I hope it doesn't get too emotionally charged. I'd be over the moon to see Brian with any of the musicians he's chosen to work with over the years.

Thewritingsofrickabilly

PS - Don't short-change Ronnie Crutcher - he is a fantastic bass player, and is the hardest-workin' doghouse slapper I've seen with Brian. Maybe Mark Dubya is so good, he makes it look effortless, but the Crusher beats on that bass like it owes him money, and is a blast to watch live. And I dig Spazz with the Big Band. His jazz chops beat all in that context.

Interesting analasis (sp) after reading Rickabilly and Michaeltomas posts it actually seems kinda simple to me. But ive been told im a simple person It seems to me that Brian picked the right musician for the right job. Yeah I know the Stray Cats were long time friends and that worked but he built off of that band, several other equally compitent band/group/ or projects however you wish to catigorize them.

Personally I am probably most fond the the Rockabilly Riot line up. Just my personal opinion and that is subject to change at any given moment, and I am absolutely 90% right 50%of the time!!

That being said, From watching videos (somehow ive managed to never catch a live show ) I think Bernie and Spaz have a more entertaing stage presence than Lee or Slim.

Another 2 pennies for the pile(abilly)

Army of Darkness

Ash: Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand things with alloys and compositions and things with... molecular structures.

well well well......

The magic that the Stray Cats had in the early 80's, hell yeah even in 2004 says it all....
Setzer might have played with people beeing a lot better, but the magic on stage with the Stray Cats. Guess I don't have to say anything more.... MAGIC

Have a great weekend

I recall seeing The Brian in an interview saying Stray Cats (notice no "the" Tommy?) were a democracy and the BSO was a dictatorship. This is likely true in all non Stray Cats Setzer projects. So that being said, the 68CBS sound is likely more Brian than the rest of the crew from a "I want you to play it like this" stand point. To me, Brian is arguably the most musically (and I mean that in every sense of the word) adept and dare I say talented of the Cats. It's difficult for me to even type this as it seems slightly blasphemis (sp?). However, this is the Setzer fan forum and not Stray Cats. I gotta agree, 68CBS particularly with Bernie's kit and prowess as a player really does amp up the rockabilly sound. It's almost like Stray Cats, which is already fantastic, put on stage doused in gasoline and set on fire, or another analogy, given a bunch of jazz lessons and then told to play the same stuff with the same rockin' attitude but fancier. As I try to wrap this up, I've realized as a previous post said, given the choice between the two, I'd rather see Stary Cats (God, it's weird to not type the "The") live than any Brian inspired trio/foursome. If it was a new album/cd however, I'd choose the more progressive of the two.(68CBS/Rockabilly Riot) It's a little like making the choice between seeing Stray Cats circa 1982 vs seeing Elvis and Scotty and Bill in 1955. I'd love to see the Cats in their hayday again(after all...I'd be 16 again) but I'm goin' to Louisiana to see the hayride, and I'm guessing most of you would too.

Good topic, this. And all valid points from you lot imo.

Not much else I can add except maybe the listener's age might count.
I discovered the Cats at the time of the Rock This Town single at the age of 10. All through my adolescence their wildness was kinda important. I mean, the music came always first but for a 15 year old rebel, the Cats' looks and wildness were great.

Then I aged a bit. The BSO came and I liked the more sophisticated sound and musicianship.
And then Brian formed the 68CBS and it had that too while still being rockabilly.
I'm still a rebel at heart but possibly not so wild anymore. So now, it's all good: Stray Cats, BSO, trio...
THEY are all good: Jim, Lee, Mark, Bernie... oh what the heck, bring them all together and have one mighty rockabilly jam!

Hellvis wrote:

Good topic, this. And all valid points from you lot imo.

Not much else I can add except maybe the listener's age might count.
I discovered the Cats at the time of the Rock This Town single at the age of 10. All through my adolescence their wildness was kinda important. I mean, the music came always first but for a 15 year old rebel, the Cats' looks and wildness were great.

Then I aged a bit. The BSO came and I liked the more sophisticated sound and musicianship.
And then Brian formed the 68CBS and it had that too while still being rockabilly.
I'm still a rebel at heart but possibly not so wild anymore. So now, it's all good: Stray Cats, BSO, trio...
THEY are all good: Jim, Lee, Mark, Bernie... oh what the heck, bring them all together and have one mighty rockabilly jam!

What a jam!

Hindsight, being 20-20, may be hard to ignore in such a discussion as this.
Foresight (aka:vision), on the other hand, may be difficult to accept here, also.
Sometimes you just gotta have faith and hope serendipity steps in and takes charge!
Maybe that's all the Cats were: a power impossible to anticipate with a result which defies
convention indisputably.
-Eddie Lee

Themusicofmichaeltomas wrote:

To me, Mark Winchester has this more percussive type slap and style that is almost if you can get this wierd analogy, "wood knocking more". While Lee seems to have a softer slap and at times almost (at least on certain recordings which could be do to the nature of how the bass was recorded) almost at times sounds more fretless bass like, almost in a way like his strength of the slap technique isn't as pronouced? However, he does slap a mean friggin bass don't get me wrong. But, just my personal opinion compare a bunch of different live show solos of Mark on tunes like Stray cat strut or Mystery train verses lee and I tend to lean towards Mark as a better sound!

I think this comes down to the type of strings they use - Lee's a steel string guy, while Mark uses gut strings. Personally, I prefer the gut sound ("woodier", I agree) over the steel sound; plus steels are a lot harder on the slap hand (but hey; I'm just a guitar player - I don't have calluses (sp?) on both hands)

Getting a decent doghouse bass sound in the eighties was nearly impossible, before manufacturers like K&K and King started constructing pickups/preamps "taylor made" for rockabilly. The best way to amplify an upright with minimal feedback trouble, was using a magnetic (i.e. Fender Precision-type) pickup, which meant you had to use steel strings. This again made the bass sound a bit more like a fretless electric than a standup bass.

Just my addition to your analisys


Anders

However it is also very limiting. And in Slim Jims own words, i think from the bonus Studio footage on the Brixton DVD "I go in there and play the same old 3 or 4 licks that I know". Which is fine as it perfectly can fit and do justice to the



I think that's called 'self deprecating humour' - Jim has played behind full kit in Phantom Rocker & Slick anyway.